ART_NORMAN BECKY_LARSEN CARRIE_ANNE_KELLER CHARLENE_HARMON CHRISTIAN_BARTH CROWD DAVID_YOCOM DICK_LARSEN DR_CARLISLE DR_GARY_BRUCATO DR_KATHERINE_RAMSLAND GARY_BRUCATO GARY_WALKER JESSICA_FOWLER JUDGE KATHLEEN_MCCHESNEY KEN_KATSARIS LARRY_VOSCHALL MIKE_VASILINDA OPERATOR REPORTER SANDY_GILMOUR TED_BUNDY DR CARLISLE He stuck out his hand and he says, hi, I�m Ted Bundy LARRY VOSCHALL He just seemed to enjoy seeing people frightened, I guess CARRIE ANNE KELLER Doc�s evaluation was so important that if he missed one thing, Ted Bundy would have walked DR CARLISLE He looked at me and he says, �Al, do you think I killed those girls?� I concluded he is violent enough to have done that type of a crime DAVID YOCOM Because of Dr Carlisle's assessment, the judge had sentenced him to 15 years in prison DR CARLISLE And I thought, boy, this guy hates me REPORTER Bundy escaped from the Pitkin County courthouse yesterday during a recess in a hearing related to his murder trial CARRIE ANNE KELLER He didn�t realize he was never gonna be done with Ted Bundy DR CARLISLE When Ted escaped He got caught, put in another jail and he called me OPERATOR Yes, Mr Bundy, we�re ready on your call to Mr Al Carlisle TED BUNDY Al, how are you doing? DR CARLISLE Hello, Ted TED BUNDY I just wanted to call you up, you know, mainly a lot of things have been happening You know, uh, the, I had that escape adventure, which caused a, a great furor of activity around here, and I guess some publicity over there DR CARLISLE But he just wanted to talk, he wanted to know what I thought of his escape TED BUNDY Extraordinary experience, because I ran up, you know, like 4,000 feet of very steep hills, actually Aspen Mountain, up, over the other side And I was feeling really good that, that evening, and I started hiking up, but a very cold sleet and rainstorm hit me, and I, I got very cold, and I went into a state of shock And it was just a, a complete mind-blow for me �Cause I had longed for freedom for so long, and now like, like I was living my ultimate dream All of a sudden, I was willing to, to throw it away because I was cold and hungry DR CARLISLE He talked to me something like a kid calling his dad and saying, �You know, I just wanted to tell you about the home run I hit What do you think about that?� TED BUNDY Well, I'm just wondering if you had any impressions about all that you've been hearing about me, and DR CARLISLE Okay, how do you mean? TED BUNDY Well, like the escape and everything I wonder what your impression of that was And just, again, they have this unrealistic fear that I'm gonna escape or something, you know? DR CARLISLE I can't imagine where they're getting that TED BUNDY Yeah, exactly DR CARLISLE This is a story about how we need to understand how normal- seeming people can become absolute monsters JESSICA FOWLER Let�s see if we can find it Oh my gosh, that�s, that�s a Christmas card! CHARLENE HARMON Yeah, I remember JESSICA FOWLER It�s 1985 �Dear Al, remembering you warmly and wishing you a very Merry Christmas� Signed �Ted� CHARLENE HARMON Wow I don�t know when it went from writing him letters in the prison to writing him letters at his home Yeah, somehow Ted Bundy got my dad�s address and sent him a Christmas card from Florida JESSICA FOWLER Yeah, that�s crazy CHARLENE HARMON Even though his official job was over with the psychological evaluation in Utah, he was still interested in the, in the case He was interested in what Ted Bundy was doing He kept reaching out to different law enforcement He reached out to people in other states because he wanted to understand more about Bundy CARRIE ANNE KELLER Doc was very interested in understanding Ted Bundy�s developmental trajectory Even though Doc�s 90-day evaluation ended on Ted Bundy in 1976, he continued to study him for years Doc reviewed papers and recordings from his colleagues, and he followed the various trials and interviews through the news Doc wanted to know what factors in his life may have contributed to him becoming a serial killer DR CARLISLE When he calls me, he is describing the jail He knew when it was built, he knew how many rooms there were If I had really thought about it, I possibly would have called the authorities in the jail and say, look out, because there�s a good chance this guy will try to escape again GARY WALKER Convicted kidnapper Theodore Bundy has escaped from jail in Colorado This time, Bundy fled the Garfield County Jail in Glenwood Springs SANDY GILMOUR Bundy's escape bordered on a Houdini escapade The 5�11� 145-pound former law student ripped out a light fixture and steel grating in the ceiling, and then maneuvered himself up through a 12�x12� hole in the ceiling The sheriff says Bundy then crawled along the attic through a maze of wires and pipes, and dropped down into the empty jailer's office, grabbed two guns and walked out the door TED BUNDY In Colorado, I escaped My plan was to get kitty-corner from Washington state, as far as I could go from Washington State was Florida I originally intended to go toward, to Gainesville I wanted a college town DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND He wanted to be near a college campus because that's the kind of victim he was looking for, is a college girl And so he then ended up in Florida DR CARLISLE I think he, he couldn�t stop from getting involved again with looking for victims And Ted was so extremely hungry to kill DR CARLISLE When Ted escaped the second time and ended up down in Florida and then he had been drinking and his eye caught this girl going in the back of Chi Omega TED BUNDY I had everything all set up, and I could have done, I could have done that and it would�ve been one more missing person�s report I tell you I�d been slinking or doing my lurking, night-stalking thing, and then I saw something else, something quick DR CARLISLE And, uh, that triggered him, and he went in TED BUNDY You know, absolutely berserk, absolutely berserk but totally disorganized, totally unplanned and then things went wrong KEN KATSARIS I got a call in the early morning hours of January the 15th that a crime had occurred at an address I knew to be the Chi Omega Sorority house As I arrived, the first young lady being wheeled out was Karen Chandler, the second was Kathy Kleiner There were two, Margaret Bowman and Lisa Levy, that were left inside that were not surviving They had been beaten brutally about the head, the skull cracked, teeth beaten out, jaws dislocated and broken DR CARLISLE I think when he went in, he was just gonna go in to do all the damage he could possibly do And it didn't matter who, he was going to kill as many people as he could possibly kill MIKE VASILINDA He fled out the backside of the Chi Omega house and probably traveled down Pensacola Street Came down at least three, going on four blocks And it was clear that the first killings didn't satiate his beast, and so he was out looking for more DR CARLISLE Ted said that Cheryl Thomas was the one he had been watching She, as I understand, had been dancing in her apartment, her home, and he was going to attack her TED BUNDY So he�s cruising around and sees this house with an open window, and he goes around there and there�s a girl and she�s really good looking, and she likes to stand in front of the mirror at night, naked, and dance CARRIE ANNE KELLER When Doc reviewed the recordings of Ted Bundy, he noticed that sometimes when he was talking about the murders, he would speak about himself in the third person TED BUNDY I admit she was very, very attractive, so he just decided that he would have to do something about this KEN KATSARIS Not six blocks away from the Chi Omega house, there was a duplex housing Cheryl Thomas on one side and friends on another side They heard what they believed to be some grunts and groans and thumping sounds They immediately called the sheriff's office I dispatched a deputy to go and check on this particular activity When she got there, that deputy went into that duplex and found Cheryl Thomas bleeding, and someone had gone out the back window MIKE VASILINDA You could picture a crazy animal who had just attacked in one place, ran until he thought he was away from that scene and then attacked again KEN KATSARIS I did not know at that time whether there was going to be another, another and another DR CARLISLE It's like a person who then hasn't had a drink for a while, and he wants one so bad, he just goes on a binge, and he doesn't stop DR CARLISLE With Ted Bundy, the compulsion is a combination of planning, the hunt, the capture, the power and control over the victim, the terror she shows and the possession of the person, often both before and after death KEN KATSARIS I got a call that came in from Colorado They wanted me to know that a man named Ted Bundy had escaped and that he was known to have murdered and brutally assaulted young women and they just wanted to let me know that because they�d heard about what happened at the Chi Omega house Well it didn�t really compute That was in Colorado, that was two weeks ago What�s the chances of Ted Bundy being Tallahassee? MIKE VASILINDA It's been a few weeks, Ted Bundy was on the loose, and then a 12- year-old girl gets kidnapped in live Oak Florida, and that is a sleepy, sleepy little town, about 75 miles to the east of Tallahassee KATHLEEN MCCHESNEY She had been outside of her school before school started one morning and vanished And witnesses believed that she was talking with a man in a white van KEN KATSARIS The evidence collection of the van related to evidence from under the fender wells, the tires, inside the van, where they found soil samples that they determined could come from one location in that general area And they found the completely decomposed body of Kimberly Leach, uh, in a pigsty, an old, abandoned pigsty DR CARLISLE I think with Kimberly Leach, my impression was he was out looking for someone, and she happened to be there And when he captured her, he couldn't let her go You know, he, he, he killed her TED BUNDY The actual experience, you know, didn't live up to it And then there was the horror, the panic, the, the despair �What have I done? What am I gonna do? You know, am, am I gonna get caught?� KEN KATSARIS An orange Volkswagen was traveling very slowly A police officer had the intuition to stop this vehicle He called in the tag, it came back over his radio that the car was stolen, and it was stolen from Tallahassee, from nearby the Florida State University He was taken into custody REPORTER Pensacola authorities are still assessing the impact of having caught one of the FBI�s 10 Most Wanted Fugitives The identification of the mystery man is Theodore Robert Bundy hit law officials like a bombshell MIKE VASILINDA He was indicted by a grand jury, it was on a Friday afternoon, as I recall And on Saturday I got a call from Sheriff Katsaris saying, �Mike, you need to be at the Leon County Jail You are gonna be part of the crew that goes in We're going to be doing something tonight that you're gonna wanna be interested in watching� TED BUNDY What do you have here, Ken? Let's see Oh, it�s an indictment, all right Why don't you read it to me? KEN KATSARIS Theodore Robert Bundy, you are charged indictment, two counts burglary, two counts murder in the first degree, three counts attempted murder in the first degree MIKE VASILINDA And it was just such a chilling look in his eyes He was pacing the room, I mean, he was like a caged animal that night And I think that�s the first time that we ever saw the contrast of the good guy on the street that was the guy that was able to charm women into his car and the guy that actually killed them MIKE VASILINDA Ted Bundy�s trial begins in Miami-Dade, Florida People were glued to their television sets to watch the trial each and every day REPORTER In the afternoon session today, a Leon County Medical examiner, Dr Thomas Wood, described how one of the victims, Lisa Levy, died MIKE VASILINDA The verdict was very quick and very swift JUDGE It is, therefore, the sentence of this court, you, Theodore Robert Bundy, be adjudicated guilty of murder in the first degree MIKE VASILINDA As time went on, there seemed to be a new revelation about more bodies somewhere, and Ted Bundy was bargaining with investigators trying to say, �Look, I can tell you more, don't kill me right now� REPORTER Serial killer Ted Bundy is talking, confessing to murder after murder, giving investigators grizzly details of a decade-long cross-country crime spree DR CARLISLE As the question comes up, why did he confess? Did he confess because he wanted stay of execution? I think that's part of it, yeah DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND At the end, he was trying to get somebody to save his life, to see him as a specimen worth studying MIKE VASILINDA And he continued to bargain up until the very final day saying, �Give me more time, give me more time I'll tell you more You can learn from me� CARRIE ANNE KELLER I don�t want it to contaminate anything And this Bundy box is full, girls! Yeah, let�s just go through this Bundy box with a heavy hand Here�s a letter from Art Norman This might be a release form, hold on JESSICA FOWLER Oh, let's look, that would be amazing CHARLENE HARMON Let�s look and see what it is, that letter CARRIE ANNE KELLER �Dear Al, I have now spent many hours with Ted and feel as if I've gotten to know him quite well� CARRIE ANNE KELLER In 1986, psychologist Art Norman performed a series of interviews with Ted Bundy CARRIE ANNE KELLER �We've not only gone through the detailed compulsive interviewing that is so necessary in situations like this, but also the psychological assessment has been very compulsive In this regard, I would like to request, once again, your test data, both scored and in raw form It would be a great benefit in our attempt to help Ted in our understanding of the evolution of his �problem behaviors� Your information is so vital that I will do anything that I can so that you will all feel comfortable in releasing it� So he's trying to get a release from Doc CHARLENE HARMON He wants information from Dad CARRIE ANNE KELLER Yeah CARRIE ANNE KELLER Doc said, �Sure, you just need to send me the tapes that you did of the Ted Bundy interview that you had with him in Florida� And it was agreed, and they did the exchange Doc was really excited when he received Art Norman�s 1986 interview with Ted Bundy CHARLENE HARMON By talking to Art Norman and getting, and listening to tapes of the interviews that Art Norman did, he could get a better picture, a more complete picture of who Ted Bundy was CARRIE ANNE KELLER The Art Norman tapes were recorded in Florida before Ted Bundy was executed, and the information on those tapes is incredible ART NORMAN I know the biochemistry I�ve studied the biochemistry But your behavior, a lot of this, I think, makes a lot of sense The Chi Omega business makes sense A lot of things in Colombia County, knowing how you fueled it with alcohol and what happens with alcohol, as a so- called darker side TED BUNDY Well I would think about my darker side, if you will, and it would seem unreal to me I mean, I just couldn�t relate to it It seemed just totally alien, unreal, and it would be just as alien for me think about what I had done as it would be for you to think Imagine you had done something like that DR CARLISLE While Ted couldn�t explain his dark side, Ted knew it was a part of him When his dark side was triggered into life, it took command of Ted�s emotions and behavior And since he couldn�t find a descriptive name for it, he gave it a sinister term, one which represented its mysterious nature and his fear of it Ted called it the Entity My intent is to show Ted Bundy lost track of himself altogether, allowing the Entity to grow within him And I wanna trace the logical development of it through the years CARRIE ANNE KELLER By studying Ted Bundy�s development, Doc was trying to understand both the warning signs and how to prevent someone from becoming a serial killer To understand that evolution, Doc had to go back and trace Ted Bundy�s early years DR CARLISLE When he was about 13, maybe 14 years old, Ted sees his birth certificate, that in the space of the father, it says �unknown� We, we don�t know who the father was So, he didn�t know before then that he was illegitimate I don�t think he ever got over that DR CARLISLE I was fairly certain that his illegitimacy was a major issue and added to any shyness and feelings of inferiority Ted might have already had up to this point in his life TED BUNDY It felt like I was pretty much in sync with my peers You know, emotionally, socially, what have you, in junior high school, and I can�t explain why the shift ART NORMAN What kind of shift? TED BUNDY Just feeling less involved, less, less a part of what�s happening More shy, or more inhibited sexually Yeah, well in high school, I was spending a lot more time alone I was feeling increasingly isolated, I think, from my friends DR CARLISLE He didn't date He was lonely, he was a lonely kid So, a kid who is really lonely, shy He spends more time in fantasy, and it becomes deeper fantasy ART NORMAN What form did it start to take in terms of fantasies, Ted? TED BUNDY The only fantasy I can remember in particular at this time�and I don�t know whether it was a fantasy that I used as far as masturbation but it, well, it could have been�had to do with stumbling upon some girls sunbathing ART NORMAN You stumbled upon them�? TED BUNDY Well I would be watching some girls JESSICA FOWLER My grandpa actually had a theory that fantasy was kind of the gateway to becoming a serial offender Most serial killers started with fantasizing DR CARLISLE So, you get that whole fantasy structure And then when it gets up to the teenage years and they go through puberty, and they start getting that whole sexual thing going, then it begins to shift into romantic fantasy DR CARLISLE In his teens, Ted had a sexual interest of looking down from his room into his neighbor's bathroom TED BUNDY There was some behavior when I was 12 to 14 or 15, I had an upstairs bedroom that overlooked the bathroom of the next-door neighbors, and I would sometimes sit there and try to see through the steamy window DR CARLISLE The important thing about the window is there as intensity to it The more intense it gets, the more a person becomes sort of semi-addicted DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND Carlisle believes that, what happens with the fantasy life of a sexually-sadistic serial killer is, the original fantasy that gratified them no longer has the same effect They start thinking about it more, they start, what we call, �decorating it,� putting more into it, more challenge, more, maybe two girls TED BUNDY There were times when I would masturbate three, four, or five times a day, and a part of that would be intense focus on fantasy, on, perhaps, aggressive fantasy DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND The fantasy, as Ted Bundy has described it, was to pick a young woman, because he liked to set himself up with college-type girls so that he could completely dominate her, rape her, strangle her, and absorb her, as if she totally belonged to him That was the fantasy Carlisle believed this is an addictive process It's, it's partly run by brain chemicals that support the addiction, and drive the addiction and, and need to be fulfilled TED BUNDY There are different emotions, different feelings, on, on, on each occasion I mean, even though there are some similarities But sure, it's, it's, there's an ecstasy, a high, even DR CARLISLE Now Ted had a problem The fantasies had to be stronger, longer, and more detailed, which only whetted his desire for the real thing Finally, he chose to give into his pathology rather than to keep it in check CARRIE ANNE KELLER For Doc to really understand the evolution of Ted Bundy as a killer, he needed to know when Ted Bundy actually crossed the line from fantasy into action JESSICA FOWLER We have that one too CHARLENE HARMON My dad was trying to find out what was the point of no return for Ted Who was his first kill? And so my dad got some tapes from Dick Larsen, and Dick Larsen was a news reporter from Seattle BECKY LARSEN A picture of my father as a young man BECKY LARSEN My dad met Carlisle through the Ted story I, I do recall my dad interviewing people, certainly victims of Bundy, and their families Dad had great respect for Dr Carlisle CARRIE ANNE KELLER Doc and Richard Larsen, the journalist, were both trying to discover the time when it shifted from fantasy to action and prompted Ted Bundy to kill That was the point of no return DICK LARSEN Did you know that he went back to Philadelphia in 1969? DR CARLISLE Again, a second time? Uh- uh DICK LARSEN In Philadelphia, he goes up to New York, gets his first taste of, um, porn This will sound a little bit familiar This is Ted speaking on tape, describing this period TED BUNDY I think it�s significant the period when I was living in Philadelphia, I went to New York several times and took the train up and just spent days, you know, haunting 42nd Street and environs I mean, that was really, I think it was that experience which pushed me right to the, the, the, the absolute limits of my ability to vicariously be satisfied Pornographic literature would take it a step further It would take it to, you know, somebody going out and actually abducting a woman and sexually abusing them and raping them And it was the same time when there were other things happening in my life that were, where it really left me down, lonely, detached DR CARLISLE In the time Ted was with Marjorie, he became overly dependent on her When Marjorie called off the relationship, Ted experienced a very traumatic breakup It shattered his personality, and he was never able to get over it, and he became more anxious and depressed than at any time in the past He was lost, he was alone GARY BRUCATO My name is Dr Gary Brucato I�m a visiting scholar of Boston College where I work on forensic research Dr Carlisle believed being rejected by this woman must have really rocked the world of an already brittle, uh, kind of angry, insecure person In men who commit serial sexual homicide, the most common form of serial killing, the pattern generally involves fantasies of domination, control, manipulation over people that they feel have rejected them or wronged them And ultimately these are fostered until they built up slowly the nerve and the, the kind of, the confidence to commit evermore terrible crimes TED BUNDY The hitchhikers comprise, probably, the most common or the second most common class of victims amongst serial murderers And especially at that period of time and given the point of my awareness, my own development, hitchhikers became a focus of, for the next, for several years And there was an atmosphere out there of total, of, of liberation in a way that you, you could really get into, you know, it was, like, smorgasbord CARRIE ANNE KELLER Doc did suspect Ted Bundy�s first murder was in Jersey in 1969, five years before he kidnapped Carol DaRonch He felt that that was a very important case to investigate and discover what happened because it had a direct coalition to Ted Bundy�s evolution as a killer DR CARLISLE The first homicide is often not planned Ted likely had no intent of taking the life of a victim But when the opportunity presented itself, he was unable to stop it from occurring CHRISTIAN BARTH My name is Christian Barth, I am an author and an attorney, and this is the first time I�ve ever sat for an at-length, in-depth interview regarding the Garden State Parkway Murders CHRISTIAN BARTH Susan Davis and Elizabeth Perry were both 19-year-old friends who attended Monticello College in Illinois The plan was that they were going to drive in Susan's car to the East Coast, stay in Ocean City, which is a resort town, for a few days before heading up to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania On May 30th, 1969, Memorial Day, at about 430 AM they awoke, packed their belongings in Susan's convertible They wanted to get on the road Trooper Lewis Ster, with the New Jersey State police, at about 8 AM, he drove past mile marker 319, at which time he noticed an abandoned blue convertible on the side of the road He decided to have the car towed He then left town for a fishing vacation, and at this point, no one knew what had happened to Susan and Elizabeth in the three days that followed Early Monday, June 2nd, 1969, Trooper Lewis Ster returned to work and noticed the missing person's bulletin had been issued It was at that time that he realized that the car that he had had towed earlier actually belonged to Susan Davis, and that the girls were missing At that time, the state police ordered a massive search of the area At approximately 130 PM, about a half hour into the search, highway worker, Woody Fontz, stumbled upon two bodies, 219 feet in off the parkway The bodies turned out to be those of Susan Davis and Elizabeth Perry There was a three-day lag between when the girls' bodies were discovered, and the car was found along side of the road So, whoever did it escaped CARRIE ANNE KELLER In 1969, Ted had spent some time in New Jersey and there were two murders there, two girls Doc always thought that Ted Bundy had killed those girls in New Jersey DR CARLISLE He couldn't have hitchhiked out there, could he? DICK LARSEN He may have DR CARLISLE See, I'm wondering about the possibility If he hitchhiked in, and met them, say at a bar or somewhere and engaged in a conversation They said he was going back, they're going back, and he says, I'm going back And, and they says, why don't you come ride with us? DICK LARSEN And if he was carrying a knife DR CARLISLE Sitting in the backseat, he could very quickly put it in the throat of one Cause them to pull over DICK LARSEN Right CHRISTIAN BARTH So, right here 219 feet at the side of the road See how close it is? CHRISTIAN BARTH Susan was found face- down approximately 10 feet from Elizabeth Because of the three-day lag, there was an accelerated amount of decomposition, animals had savaged the bodies This in turn, made it very difficult for detectives to ascertain whether either or one of the girls had been sexually assaulted In the Garden State Parkway murders, there were a number of suspects The New Jersey State Police interviewed anywhere between 2,500 and 4,000 Among those were Mark Thomas, Gerald Eugene Stano, Ronnie Walden, and Ted Bundy So we cannot exclude Ted Bundy as a suspect in the unsolved Garden State Parkway murders CHRISTIAN BARTH I�ve never heard any of Dr Carlisle�s tapes from his archives This is actually the first time I�m hearing anything TED BUNDY So I spent that whole winter going to New York and doing that thing and getting pushed to the edge with the most sophisticated, uh, explicit pornography available anywhere in this country, anyway So I decided to leave, go back home to the West Coast It was sort of like a defeated, state of mind But before he does, he decides to just take a little bit of a jaunt to the, what they call �the shore� CHRISTIAN BARTH Ted seemed to freely go back and forth between the first person and the third person, the first person and the third person, in describing himself and his crimes ART NORMAN The Jersey Shore? TED BUNDY This is early, like, early summer And so after being more or less detached from people, didn't have any friends, he drove to shore and walks to the beach and just sees young women lined upalong the beach And it was like a, an absolute, uh, overwhelming kind of vision CHRISTIAN BARTH When Ted says it's �an overwhelming sort of vision,� I, I think he must be referencing sort of the vision being the transition All that has been built up to this point was overwhelming, when all of a sudden, this Shangri-la, this, this beautiful place at the beach is sort of what he was dreaming of all along, suddenly becomes his reality TED BUNDY Which, you know, eventually he found himself tearing around that place for a couple days So, without really planning anything, picked up a couple young girls, and ended up being the first time he�d ever done it CHRISTIAN BARTH Okay, so that's the first time I've, I have ever heard that �Did it� TED BUNDY Picked up a couple young girls and ended up being the first time he�d ever done it CHRISTIAN BARTH He was, met a couple girls, and it wound up being the first time that he ever did it So what do we mean by �did it?� I assume that he is referencing the murder of Susan Davis and Elizabeth Perry What else could he mean by �did it?� He had to do something He didn't think it, he didn't feel it He didn't plan it, just, �I did it� DR CARLISLE When a person does that and kills someone, it changes their whole personality They're different after that You can't undo, you can't un-kill someone DR CARLISLE Ted had now crossed that final line He had been holding off from doing this for so long, a tremendous amount of stress had built up At the point of the killing, Ted felt satisfaction He had physically destroyed a living person and symbolically destroyed Marjorie And he felt momentary peace The killing cycle was complete The process permanently fixed in place and the only thing that would stop him from killing again would be if he were killed himself CARRIE ANNE KELLER The big takeaway that Doc learned from studying Bundy was, he understood the evolution of a killer, the pathways that they take to create themselves Doc was trying to prove that his theory of the development of the violent mind happens in tiny steps The descent is a spiral of, of thoughts, actions, smells, memories, reality, fantasy It's all entwined DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND Al Carlisle developed a theory about serial killers They have a fantasy life Typically, they�re kids who are kind of loners, who were neglected, perhaps abused, who developed hero fantasies And within this frame of fantasy, they began to rehearse things that they might want to do to somebody DR CARLISLE For some reason, something happens that doesn't quite work Then you get a point of change DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND Within the rehearsal fantasies, they might see someone, they might see a woman, they then might act on their fantasy to try to make it reality DR CARLISLE You get to, what I refer to as �a point of no return� A person builds up this urge so strong that they finally kill their first victim Then they go from victim, to victim, to victim DR CARLISLE There is one additional issue that needs to be addressed I believe that, over time, his desire to hurt girls became an urge that he was often unable to control But if the desire is fed it grows and can become so powerful that it has the appearance of a split personality A possible explanation of how this can occur is through a process that all of us are familiar with compartmentalization GARY BRUCATO I think when we talk about the sides of Ted Bundy, what we're really talking about is a kind of a compartmentalization or a splitting The individual can sort of fragment, in such a way where there's a, a separation in the intellect and in the feeling of ideas So that a person can, let's say, by day, be a loving father, or a coworker that people like, someone very funny or warm, et cetera But then, by night have this other persona TED BUNDY There were times when this, when this, this particular aspect of myself was extremely powerful and well-defined, very aroused and, and, and craving something, where I would actually have dialogues with it, actually talk It would talk to me It was saying, �Okay, now listen, stop fucking around, and, you know, do this and that Now we're gonna do it, and I'm tired of you fucking around� DR CARLISLE The Entity is so strong, is so powerful And the reason it's so powerful is because it was that dark side that met all of his emotional and anger needs It worked better for him than his normal-day persona DR GARY BRUCATO Part of the process of descent into serial killing for Dr Carlisle, was the idea that, ultimately, there was a kind of an embracing of the identity, ultimately, that, originally, one is gradually approaching, until spilling over completely, and then becoming kind of desensitized and repeatedly committing the act DR CARLISLE The day by day socially acceptable compartment become subservient to the greatly strengthened pathological compartment There is an almost total loss of control over his pathology And the person escalates, deteriorates and then collapses MIKE VASILINDA Ted Bundy walked in I got the distinct feeling he went limp, he just, his body kind of, went like this There was the electric chair right in front of him, and the sight of it just told him his time was over The only thing he said was, �Tell my friends and family that I love them� He was literally dead two to three minutes following the turning on of the electricity, and Ted Bundy died at the age of 42 REPORTER The hearse carrying Bundy moved from the prison, past a group of cheering spectators who had waited for Bundy to die And some said Bundy should have suffered more than he did CROWD [SINGING] Ted Bundy is dead! DR CARLISLE I had mixed feelings I can see it from the point of view of the victims and of society In that way, I thought, yeah, it's good for Ted to have been executed The other part, the scientist part of me said, oh, that's too bad Isn't there a way of saying, look, Ted, we�ll extend this if you're willing to really get into all of the details to help prevent this from happening in the future CARRIE ANNE KELLER After working with Ted Bundy, Doc needed to find more killers to talk to, so that he could figure out those puzzle pieces JESSICA FOWLER My grandpa wanted to understand He was curious What is it that makes a person capable of harming another human being? CHARLENE HARMON My dad believed there were so many more He wanted to take what he learned while studying Ted Bundy�s developmental trajectory and see if he could find a pattern DR CARLISLE Was Ted the only person who has ever developed this eternal process? I don�t think so I believe that it is likely going on in someone now and we will see it happen again in the future Not all who engage in intense pathological fantasy will kill, but some may JESSICA FOWLER My grandfather lived most of his life in Utah And so wanting to interview somebody who had committed probably the most heinous crime in the state, grandpa thought was important Grandpa was the first one to interview them CARRIE ANNE KELLER The planning and the brutality with the Hi-Fi Killers, it was pure evil