CARRIE_ANNE_KELLER CHARLENE_HARMON CHRIS_MCDONOUGH CORTNEY_NAISBITT DALE_PIERRE_SELBY DEAN_JACKSON DON_MOORE DR_BRUCATO DR_CARLISLE DR_DREW_CURTIS DR_GARY_BRUCATO DR_NICKY_JACKSON DR_PAUL_PURI EVERYONE FRANCINE_BARDOLE GARY_BRUCATO JESSICA_FOWLER KAREN_ELLIOT KEVIN_YOUNGBERG MARCI_ANSLEY MARCOS_ORTIZ MARCOS_ORTIZ_INTV MARCUS_ORTIZ NICKY_JACKSON REGGIE_DINSMORE REPORTER SHEILA_TUCKER_WHITE STEPHEN_DIRKS UNIDENTIFIED_FEMALE UNIDENTIFIED_MALE WILLIAM_ANDREWS DR CARLISLE Good afternoon The things we�re going to talk about are pretty sensitive I hope we don�t scare anyone to death and have you have nightmares DON MOORE The Hi-Fi murders were the most heinous, horrible crime that Ogden, Utah had ever seen STEPHEN DIRKS Some folks happened to be in a place where these people with malicious intent committed this series of crimes KEVIN YOUNGBERG I saw some of the most vicious things that one human being can do to another DALE PIERRE SELBY You can watch somebody being beaten or assaulted and it be the funniest thing you ever seen WILLIAM ANDREWS I�m not proud of what happened Those people were taken down into the basement and then it started all just snowballing MARCUS ORTIZ During the trial, Dale Pierre and William Andrews would not confess despite all this evidence that police had JESSICA FOWLER My grandfather lived most of his life in Utah And so, wanting to interview somebody who had committed, probably the most heinous crime in the state, grandpa thought was important When grandpa walked into the room that day, all he knew was that he had one day to try and get this famously tight-lipped guy to finally talk DR CARLISLE Okay Where is the best place for you to start? DR CARLISLE This is a story about how we need to understand how normal-seeming people can become absolute monsters CARRIE ANNE KELLER After his successful evaluation of Ted Bundy in 1976, Doc wanted to keep going with his theory on the development of the violent mind DR CARLISLE I wanted to talk to people to see if I could see some kind of a development of a violent personality CARRIE ANNE KELLER That�s why he got into studying these killers That�s why he keeps digging Doc didn�t necessarily have a plan He just needed more subjects to talk to if he wanted to add to the hypothesis he was starting to develop and he had the perfect subjects sitting right there in Utah State Prison Dale Pierre Selby and William Andrews AKA the Hi-Fi Killers, the most famous mass murderers in Utah State history GARY BRUCATO For those of us who study violent crime, the truth of the matter is that prior to the 1970s, mass murders were somewhat unusual People that are interested in the history of violent crime will often talk about the Hi-Fi murders as a, a kind of a classic case It�s in fact included in the crime classification manual as an example of a particularly heinous offense bysome people who are psychopathic and sometimes sadistic MARCOS ORTIZ There had been some minor crimes in Ogden prior to this but not to this magnitude It was just overwhelming in terms of what had happened here STEPHEN DIRKS The Hi-Fi Shop was right downtown on Washington Boulevard They sold upper-end stereophonic equipment And they had a listening room, people would come interact, gather I had been in the Hi-fi Shop a whole lot of times It was a safe community place KEVIN YOUNGBERG I was out riding with my field training officer that night, I had 31 days on the job at that time KEVIN YOUNGBERG I thought I�d seen everything We�d made arrests, dead bodies, suicides Everybody calls it in as, you know, it�s a robbery in progress I figured, well, somebody's stolen something and gotten out the door It wasn't that at all So, we went downstairs, and being young and dumb, we didn't search anything We just went in and found everybody on the floor KEVIN YOUNGBERG I said to my partner that we would need an ambulance and he says he�s already got one coming CARRIE ANNE KELLER There were a total of five victims at the Hi-fi Shop Cortney Naisbitt and Orren Walker who miraculously survived the attack Stanley Walker, Carol Naisbitt, and Michelle Ansley were all murdered DON MOORE From the two surviving victims, we received evidence that helped to determine what had happened that night It was the most heinous, horrible crime that Ogden, Utah had ever seen DON MOORE The store closed normally at 6 PM on a Monday night Stan Walker was the male employee at the business Orren Walker was the father of Stan Walker and when Stan did not come home like he was supposed to after work, Orren Walker went down to the store and that�s when he walked in on the robbery that was in progress The other victims, Stan Walker, Michelle Ansley, and Cortney Naisbitt, had already been tied up and then Cortney Naisbitt�s mother, Carol Naisbitt, arrived at the scene MARCOS ORTIZ All of these five individuals were taken into the basement and then from that point on just awful things happened KEVIN YOUNGBERG We didn�t understand why there were burns on their mouths or why there was so much respiratory arrest on the two that were still alive DON MOORE The victims had been forced to drink Drano by the perpetrators MARCOS ORTIZ And their lips were blistering And they were screaming in pain And then on top of that one of the victims, 18-year-old Michelle Ansley, she was raped in the basement right next to the other individuals who were held hostage DR NICKY JACKSON The fear, the humiliation, the degradation that she experienced at the hands of this monster I can�t imagine what she went through MARCOS ORTIZ At that point Pierre didn�t want any other witnesses so he took out a 22, lined them up and then, one by one, shot them in the back of the head Three of them died immediately There were two people that still were alive Cortney Naisbitt and Orren Walker At that point, Selby and Andrews took all their Hi-fi equipment, put it into the van and left DON MOORE The next day, we had received information from the surviving victim, Mr Walker He suffered multiple injuries, but he was alert and coherent And from the suspect information that we had gotten from him, we knew that the two suspects were both black individuals KEVIN YOUNGBERG Mr Walker also gave some approximate heights and weights DON MOORE He then continued to give a very accurate description of the vehicle involved, which was a light-colored van And as soon as that information became available, that was put out to all units STEPHEN DIRKS I had just been elected as mayor Ogden, at the time, was a prosperous community We were the second largest city in the state Hill Air Force Base was a major employer At the time, they had about 10,000 military personnel stationed on the base KEVIN YOUNGBERG We received information that led to some possible evidence out on Hill Air Force Base Personal property from the victims were found in a dumpster out near one of the barracks, so the officers involved went out there, searched the base and they also found a light-color van matching the description from the crime scene DON MOORE There had been a crowd of people surrounding there wanting to know why law enforcement was there And towards the back of the crowd there were two airmen that didn't seem to be paying a lot of attention, who were arguing amongst themselves And the way they were acting and what they were doing, it was a little suspicious The two airmen matched surviving victim, Orren Walker�s description of the suspects involved in the Hi-Fi homicide KEVIN YOUNGBERG The suspects, William Andrews and Dale Pierre Selby were arrested at the base and taken to the Ogden Police Department for interrogation, and both refused to elaborate on what had happened, or confess to the crime DR CARLISLE You wanna know the batteries are good Picking up good Okay DR CARLISLE A few years ago, the term �serial murder� was not used Let�s begin to differentiate between the person who kills a lot of people at one time, and the other person who seems to go from place to place killing people Thus, we came out with the term, the �serial murderer� DR NICKY JACKSON I'm Dr Nicky Jackson I am a victimologist, and I am a criminologist The night of the Hi-Fi killings was a mass murder They killed three or more victims at one location and that�s the key to understanding mass murders STEPHEN DIRKS A good portion of the community knew of, or knew well, the families and the folks that were there The Walkers were active in the community Dr Naisbitt, his wife was active in various organizations in the community Michelle Ansley, I didn't know before the incident Cortney Naisbitt survived the, the situation Beforehand, he was a very bright individual that you knew was going to make a real contribution to society, but he was not the same afterwards He suffered brain damage, and so he walked haltingly, he talked haltingly CORTNEY NAISBITT I lost myself, my identity And they affixed to me a new identity, which, not very many people can associate with STEPHEN DIRKS The Hi-Fi murders had extra impact because there was nothing special about the folks that had this done to them It was just an arbitrary sort of thing where some folks happened to be in a place, at a time where these people with malicious intent and without conscious committed these series of crimes UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE I love that MARCI ANSLEY Yeah MARCI ANSLEY The Hi-Fi murders, to me, it was just something I tried to put behind me It was so horrific A lot of things changed after the Hi-Fi murders It's still very sensitive Michelle, she went in to work and she was covering for somebody else that day She was 18 years old at the time She was engaged to be married, had her whole future ahead of her, and she just was full of life, you know I think Ogden lost its innocence Even after the Hi-fi Shop incident happened, we just could not fathom who from Ogden would have done that We just couldn�t, we just couldn�t comprehend it We felt that it might not be somebody from Ogden because it was just so horrific DON MOORE The day after the arrest, search warrants were obtained for where the suspects in this crime resided at the barracks, Barracks 351 at Hill Air Force Base And underneath the rug in Dale Pierre�s room, we found an envelope containing a lease agreement for a storage facility about two blocks away from the Hi-fi Shop A search warrant was obtained for that storage facility KEVIN YOUNGBERG Right down here, the second or third one in from the very end So detectives showed up at that point with the warrant There were probably five or six of them I got to come across and watch as they broke the lock open and rolled open the door At which point we saw all that stereo equipment had been taken during the robbery There were probably five or six of us standing there and everybody just gasped We had our evidence, and we knew what had happened and they had their suspects at the same time MARCOS ORTIZ Six months after the murders, Dale Pierre Selby and William Andrews went to trial Both of them were tried together Dale Pierre Selby and William Andrews would not confess despite all this evidence that police had CARRIE ANNE KELLER At trial, between the eyewitness testimony and the incredible amount of physical evidence, it became very clear to everyone that Dale Pierre Selby was the absolute aggressor and mastermind MARCOS ORTIZ INTV About a month later, November 16th, 1974, a jury found William Andrews and Dale Pierre Selby guilty of the murders JESSICA FOWLER My grandfather lived most of his life in Utah This was very close to home for him And so, wanting to interview somebody who had committed probably the most heinous crime in the state, grandpa thought was important This wasn�t assigned to him like the 90-day assessment of Ted Bundy This was just grandpa really kicking off his own research by targeting the most famous criminal in Utah, Dale Pierre Selby CARRIE ANNE KELLER Doc was working at the Utah State Prison, so he had contact with Dale Pierre Selby, but Dale refused to talk to anyone after the murders Dale told him, no DR GARY BRUCATO So, little is known about the personal history of Dale Pierre Selby Would've been no small feather in Carlisle's cap to be the person who cracked the mystery of what was going on inside of this opaque and difficult person JESSICA FOWLER Dale Pierre Selby had not talked to anybody else He didn�t want to talk to anybody about what had happened So, grandpa had a little bit of a challenge ahead of him CARRIE ANNE KELLER Dr Al Carlisle worked on Dale Pierre just by being a friend, being caring, just showing that someone cared about him Finally, one day, about 10 years later, Dale Pierre, he said, �I�m ready to talk� JESSICA FOWLER The most surprising thing about this interview with Selby is not only that grandpa got the interview, but that Selby had agreed to one meeting only I�m sure grandpa was hoping he�d get more But when he walked into that room that day, all he knew was that he had one day to try and get this famously tight-lipped guy to finally talk DR CARLISLE Okay Where is the best place for you to start? DR GARY BRUCATO I've never heard this before and I'm quite eager to hear what Dr Carlisle was able to acquire CARRIE ANNE KELLER The goal of this archive is to get these tapes into the hands of experts so that this information can be analyzed Especially with Selby since Doc never made any analysis notes One day, there�s gonna be an angle that we didn�t think about that might help somebody, that might save someone DR CARLISLE Picking up good Okay, where is the best place for you to start? Help me to understand you? Is it in your growing up years, or is it easier to start later on? DALE PIERRE SELBY I don't know I don't know But the strange thing is, most of the guys that I�ve found here and talked to, their troubles seem to be an extension of a �wild childhood,� so to speak, you know Troubles with juvenile hall, state school, all that type of stuff And for me it was just this, it was just this happened I was in church, in the choir You know, Pathfinders, all that kind of stuff DR CARLISLE Oh, what leader? DALE PIERRE SELBY Pathfinder, it�s like Boy Scouts DR CARLISLE Oh, I see DALE PIERRE SELBY Yeah, up in, ah, Trinidad DR DREW CURTIS A lot of what the work of psychology is, is to get information It�s not just about asking people questions, you have to establish relationship, rapport You want the person to trust you So how you are nonverbally, your posture, people pick up a lot on those cues DR CARLISLE Have any nightmares or anything ever come back to haunt you? DALE PIERRE SELBY Most of the time I dream I'm back in Trinidad, back home CARRIE ANNE KELLER It�s interesting to hear how Doc starts the Selby conversation, very quickly going back to Selby�s childhood, because eventually, Doc had a theory that traumatic events in a child�s early development could affect their personality forever DR CARLISLE I have to be able to show how it happened, I have to use some evidence that he has been violent before I have to show through his childhood how it may have happened and how it�s logical for him to have ended up here DR CARLISLE Can you remember what you felt? DALE PIERRE SELBY I remember my mother, you know, giving me a beating I remember my mother throwing a rager After she beat me, she hadn�t worked up a rage enough to beat me again I remember thinking, my god, my head hurt Back then you didn�t talk back to your elders I remember getting a beating for talking back to my elders DR NICKY JACKSON Pierre had a difficult childhood He grew up with a mother who abused him So, there's no question in my mind that he was a victim of trauma bonding DALE PIERRE SELBY You know, get the laugh The giggles, I call it DR CARLISLE So, there�s no feeling of fear? DALE PIERRE SELBY No feeling of fear There�s just no emotional response to anything DR NICKY JACKSON Trauma bonding is when an abused child has this unhealthy attachment to their abuser Children who see a parent be violent, they may turn to violence to get what they want, and that's what Selby did DR CARLISLE The kid would say, my mom would beat me until I was bloody, and he�d say, I didn�t feel the pain As he goes through all of this internal turmoil, what he has to do then is to say, I�m gonna hold myself together But it breaks through from time to time It doesn�t take long before the person has to do something with the pain He then starts being able to disassociate, disassociate enough that the pain seems to go somewhere else, he doesn�t feel it DALE PIERRE SELBY I was angry all through the time DR CARLISLE What was going through your mind? Why do you think you were angry? DALE PIERRE SELBY I look back, you know, on certain things I had some fights There, the guy, his name was Christoff I hit him with a stone Even as I hit him on his head and opened it, and he was bleeding Pretty good gash on his head too I remember I was in such a rage That was a lot bigger than me too DR CARLISLE How did you feel when you saw the kid, when he was hurt? When he was bleeding? DALE PIERRE SELBY I remember telling him, �That serves you right� And then I remember another time, I was about 10, 11 in school Me and this guy named Trafesso had a complication talking in the church, you know, and he turned around, told me, shut up And I said, �Man, you know, to hell with you, don't tell me shut up,� you know I remember they had the sports rack where they kept balls and bats and stuff like that I remember one cricket bat, you know what a cricket bat is? And I remember coming back, came up behind him and took a swing, you know, almost brained him And I told him, �Next time, sucker, I ain't gonna miss� CARRIE ANNE KELLER The brutality, the anger, the rage, Dale Pierre started young We know some of the things that he did, and certainly I bet it's just the tip of the iceberg DR CARLISLE Can you see the possibility that those violent tendencies were latent in you? DALE PIERRE SELBY Well, yeah JESSICA FOWLER Grandpa spent years meeting, interviewing serial killers and known murderers and, according to grandpa, a mass murderer is a loner He is quiet and very intelligent� DR CARLISLE He is quiet and very intelligent He does not have a lot of friends Possibly with a borderline personality disorder CARRIE ANNE KELLER Now that Doc has opened the door, he has that trust and openness Finally, for the first time, Selby is speaking freely DR CARLISLE Has anyone ever said that to you at times, sometimes you seem like you're almost someone else? DALE PIERRE SELBY I guess I�m some kind of crazy or something Others would just express outright fear of me I don't know why, I never spoke to anybody Usually I was a loner, I stayed to myself, but yet, I said that they all claimed that they were so afraid of me DR CARLISLE Yeah DR GARY BRUCATO I'm Dr Gary Brucato I was one of the two creators of the Columbia Mass Murder Database As part of my expertise in the area of mass murder, I have extensively studied the Hi-Fi murders There is a combination of factors that are necessary for somebody to go out to commit mass murder of the type that we see in the Selby case Individuals that go on to commit violence have a conspicuous amount of environmental experiences that are highly negative After studying this case in the academic world, it�s fascinating to hear Selby talk about his experiences firsthand for the first time DR CARLISLE How long have you been in the country? DALE PIERRE SELBY Since ah, I can�t remember if it�s exactly �69 or �70 but it was June in that year MARCOS ORTIZ You have to go back to their background Dale Pierre migrated with his family to New York, and around 19 years of age, he joined the Air Force He was transferred to Hill Air Force Base in 1973, about a year before the Hi-Fi murders happened And that is how he came to know William Andrews SHEILA TUCKER WHITE I'm Sheila Tucker White I worked at Hill Air Force Base in the airman's cafeteria I ran across Selby in the cafeteria pretty much daily He usually came in and he'd get a tray full of food all piled up, and then he'd have a Coca-Cola, an orange, and milk And every day he drank them and ate in the same manner, every day, same routine Selby was a loner I never saw him with anyone Nobody ever sat near him, he was just a strange duck DR CARLISLE How did the Air Force work out for you? DALE PIERRE SELBY It didn�t because I was trying to get out I don�t know what I was looking for, but I thought that might had been it And when it turned out that that wasn�t it, I wanted out They had already started the paperwork and had taken me off the flight line I was working in the dormitory doing mostly janitorial duties type of stuff I remember meeting Andrews in the dorm there SHEILA TUCKER WHITE Andrews, I saw him around and about at, uh, dances and parties and a friend of mine was his girlfriend, so, I saw him occasionally Andrews was fun, really sweet, easy to talk to He was just a regular older teenager Took me by total surprise He was such a nice guy CHARLENE HARMON Dad had one of his associates interview Andrews By separating the two and having two different therapists or two different people talking to them they would get more honest answers than if they were both trying to lie to one person CARLISLE�S ASSOCIATE We�re discussing the most recent court action in regards to Mr Andrews� case Do you feel comfortable about talking about what happened? WILLIAM ANDREWS Like I said it doesn�t bother me now because it seems like it�s all over If the US Supreme Court decided not to view our case and we�re to be executed in, um, anywhere between two to six months No more trials, no more hearings The fact is, I don't remember whose idea it was I remember this much, I remember it was on a Saturday afternoon, Saturday afternoon before the crime took place We got to rappin� about robberies and crime and all this stuff The subject of stereos might�ve came into play, because we were sitting there listening to the stereo And uh, we had all been to the Hi-fi Shop before, uh, looking at stereo equipment So we all knew this store And we knew that it had a lot of good stuff in it So, Pierre went out and rented the, ah, the storage unit on that same Saturday afternoon And, uh, we planned that Monday to go in there at closing time, throw down on everybody, tie them up and take the equipment DR DREW CURTIS In hearing his tapes, it was clear from Andrews that there was a lot of planning Planning of, of the storage unit, planning of items they wanted to take, planning of the robbery DR CARLISLE How did you happen to decide upon the Hi-fi Shop? DALE PIERRE SELBY God, I don�t even know DR CARLISLE Would you feel comfortable telling me the events that you do remember? DALE PIERRE SELBY I remember going downtown with Andrews I remember him going up, up one street, coming down, and parking I think we were going to the Hi-fi Shop I don�t know what it was called I think it was called the Hi-fi Shop DR CARLISLE Was the idea just to go in and rob it, then and leave? DALE PIERRE SELBY At that point, that's, that's, that's what I thought it was You know, we were just, went to go there, get the equipment and leave DON MOORE From what I know about the case and all the planning they did, Andrews is being pretty straightforward but Selby is lying He�s still trying to manipulate people WILLIAM ANDREWS Also, the discussion came up about whether or not the people that were there in the store should be killed CARLISLE�S ASSOCIATE No witnesses, you mean? WILLIAM ANDREWS Yeah, I guess so WILLIAM ANDREWS The discussion came up about whether or not the people that were there in the store should be killed CARLISLE�S ASSOCIATE No witnesses, you mean? WILLIAM ANDREWS In my mind, I wasn't, I hadn't concluded that the witnesses should be killed I hadn't made that conclusion yet CARLISLE�S ASSOCIATE But that was, ah WILLIAM ANDREWS But apparently, somebody in the group had made that conclusion CARLISLE�S ASSOCIATE Selby Is he irrational? WILLIAM ANDREWS Oh yeah, very irrational I don�t think he has as much self- control He lets his anger get the best of him DR DREW CURTIS Andrews is saying a story about planning, stealing, and then even talking about the murders and harming people which seems very discrepant from, I just thought we were gonna go in and steal some things DR CARLISLE Your idea then was just to go in and rob the place, take some things and leave? What changed? What went wrong? DALE PIERRE SELBY People coming in, it changed the whole picture of everything I remember sitting upstairs, you know, just wandering around the place, bouncing, you know And I remember also a curious thing too, I went to the front, and I was standing there looking out, you know, just standing there looking out I think I had a gun in my hand too, if I'm not mistaken DR DREW CURTIS I think Dr Carlisle asked a really good question He asked him about what changed Dale Pierre is talking about, �I had only assumed to conduct this robbery, and these were the order of events� DALE PIERRE SELBY And then it dawned on me, I said, wait a minute, the people here, suppose they call the police? A lady came in And I called Andrews and I said, �Look at this now� I remember telling Andrews, �Now what are you gonna do? Now what are you gonna do?� Andrews took her downstairs and tied her up DON MOORE I never got that much information from him concerning the case He would talk a little more openly about things that had no bearing whatsoever on what I wanted to get out of him DALE PIERRE SELBY I said, you know all the people that have seen us? Now what are you going to do? How are you gonna get away with this stuff? This is getting worse They could be getting more paranoid too Anyway, I put the speakers in the van And I remembered, you know, Andrews had the idea that to just give them the Drano because you give them that, they won�t be able to talk I remember saying, yep, yep, that�s a good idea CARLISLE�S ASSOCIATE Did you participate in this, ah, with the Drano? How did that happen? Did you mix it up with water or something? Or just tell this guy to drink it straight? WILLIAM ANDREWS That�s about what happened I don�t remember the exact dialogue and all that I was scared to even try to give it to the people CARLISLE'S ASSOCIATE Who thought that up? WILLIAM ANDREWS I don�t know CARLISLE'S ASSOCIATE You don�t recall? You don�t recall who said Drano? WILLIAM ANDREWS No, I don�t remember who CARLISLE'S ASSOCIATE That was what you were gonna use to kill them? WILLIAM ANDREWS I assume so CARLISLE'S ASSOCIATE Didn�t want to arouse suspicion with gunshots? WILLIAM ANDREWS That probably was the motivation CARRIE ANNE KELLER There were so many excuses, justifications Dale Pierre blamed Andrews, and Andrews blamed Dale Pierre DR CARLISLE�S ASSOCIATE Everyone was down in the basement and the Drano was handy or something? WILLIAM ANDREWS No, it was in the van DR CARLISLE�S ASSOCIATE How come? WILLIAM ANDREWS I guess one of us had the idea, and one of us placed it in the van And when the time came DALE PIERRE SELBY It was Andrews� idea that we just give them, give them the Drano stuff because we used it on the base, you know, it was pretty powerful stuff DON MOORE The thing is we know this isn�t true, because there was a Clint Eastwood movie that was a sequel to the movie Dirty Harry that had been playing on the theater at Hill Air Force Base where Pierre was an airman He had seen that movie multiple times In that movie a pimp who has a prostitute had taken a can of Drano and forced her to drink the Drano and she died from it within a matter of minutes He knewwhat he was doing when he went in there DR NICKY JACKSON The victims were forced to drink the Drano How horrendous this must have been for them DON MOORE What we know from the trial is the victims had been tied up and put down on the basement floor They were tied up with electrical cord Andrews was out by the van to get the can of Drano And the very first victim being asked to drink that was Carol Naisbitt When told that it was vodka, she refused to drink it because of her religion, she was not a person that would drink alcoholic beverages So the perpetrator forced her mouth open WILLIAM ANDREWS Pierre, at first he handed me the cup and told me to administer the Drano to the people I didn�t have the nerve So, he gave me the gun and he took the Drano Orren Walker took the cup, but he wouldn�t drink it And I told him, I said, �Man, if you don�t drink it, I�m gonna blow your brains out� DON MOORE Orren Walker, he held it in his mouth, and he tilted his head to one side and let it dribble onto the floor It actually burned the rug But he did not swallow it KEVIN YOUNGBERG The thing about this is, if they had wanted the stereo equipment, you don�t go in and tie people up and torture them for hours and hours You go in, you take what you can get, and you drive away DR CARLISLE What kept you from doing that then? Just letting them go? DALE PIERRE SELBY While I'm sitting there, I'm thinking, what if they can talk? Then I was thinking, what if they can type, you know? Or what if they can give signs, or draw pictures? And then I tell Andrews, �What you gonna do now?� And by that time we had already given them the Drano I said, I mean, this thing is getting worse What are we gonna do now? We might as well just shoot them Then I handed him the gun He says, �Well, I can't do this,� because he wouldn�t do it, or couldn�t do it, or whatever Well Andrews, he gave me that little 25 he had there, and you have to keep knocking and pulling, and keep pulling on the, the slide and it wasn�t even working right DR GARY BRUCATO Dale Pierre Selby, his relationship with Andrews, clearly Andrews was something of a follower and Pierre was the dominant, clearly psychopathic member of the two CARLISLE�S ASSOCIATE Was anybody dead yet? WILLIAM ANDREWS No I told Pierre, I said, man, I can�t kill these people And I doubt if you can either So let �s just go ahead and leave I think that when I said that, Pierre may have taken it as a challenge WILLIAM ANDREWS At that point I said man, I�m done, I'm leaving So, I went outside, got in the van and drove off DON MOORE At this point the Drano hadn�t worked the way it should have and that upset Pierre DR GARY BRUCATO One of the things that's complicated about the Hi-Fi murders is that we have a mixed series of motives Superficially speaking, it was a robbery But what it appears is, is that in the heat of the moment, there was a secondary element of a sexual assault that it became an outlet for somebody who had sadistic or kind of psychopathic personality traits CARLISLE�S ASSOCIATE Were you involved with the rape? WILLIAM ANDREWS I don't know of any rape The only part that I know about was the Drano In fact, we, up to today, me and Pierre had never talked about what happened after I left CARLISLE�S ASSOCIATE Is that right? DR NICKY JACKSON Dale Pierre, he took Michelle to the corner of the basement, he forces her to strip naked, he rapes her I can't imagine what she went through DR GARY BRUCATO Despite this being categorized as a mass murder, the problem is that in the Hi-Fi case we see the psychopathic character structure of Selby took over a little bit, so that we start to see some of the things that are seen in serial killings, like the gratuitous cruelty, the sexual assault, which probably was secondary and opportunistic, but it tells you a lot about the type of person he was and the kind of criminal career he might have gone onto if he had not been captured DR CARLISLE In the incident, I�d imagine somewhere along the way some of the people would say, �Oh, please don�t hurt us, please don�t do that,� things like that Would you hear them say that? Would you feel anything when they did? Does that sort of thing have any impact on you in a situation like this? DALE PIERRE SELBY I don't even know I guess I must have gotten into a frenzy or something At times, I can get so that I have a rage, given the incident, given the state of mind and all that I think all that rage just probably just came out at that time I guess I probably just got into the violence of it Because if you look at it, it�s unnecessary It wasn't even called for, it just happened DR DREW CURTIS He�s almost impulsively saying, �This thing happened You know, it wasn't me, it just, it occurred, you know? I was involved,� and some, some distancing of responsibility �It happened� It doesn't even really explicitly or emphasize the fact that he was there, but almost as, as it merely happening, happening to him DALE PIERRE SELBY How does a person just, just come to that decision? It�s almost like casual, you know? And uh, it�s easy to explain, you know, it�s all in your mind, the drugs did it to you DR CARLISLE Had you been using that day or the day before or the day before that? DALE PIERRE SELBY Oh yeah, yeah That, that week, I think I was using it more that month, so to speak Because I had just come back from vacation DR CARLISLE When it finally struck you that you had done those things, how did you feel? Was there any guilt? DALE PIERRE SELBY More pills More pills immediately More pills It's the first thing I did DR CARLISLE Did you know at that time that you was the one who did it? DALE PIERRE SELBY I don�t know I think I got from you know, to, to this point, to like I said something like melting, what you call mental breakdown, you know, I guess ah, just talking about the experimenting with the pills and what I call cocktailing and ah, thatcould be it DR DREW CURTIS The human mind and brain, when faced with extensive stimuli or, or trauma, if one's experiencing the pain to dissociate oneself from that pain, and if we can't behaviorally flee, then we might mentally flee We might check out or we call dissociate DR CARLISLE Now the cocktailing, you're saying you used marijuana, yeah DALE PIERRE SELBY And Valium Used to try ah, something we call Black Beauties with mescaline And ah, that was a little too potent too, because ah, I felt suicidal with that kind of combination It was just too strong DR CARLISLE The Black Beauties? DALE PIERRE SELBY Right And not only that, they make me feel crazy too DR CARLISLE What do you mean crazy? What would you experience? DALE PIERRE SELBY Hm, I don't seem to have any fear of anything Give me more of an edge, you know I seem to get, uh, short fused, you know DR GARY BRUCATO Listening to the story, you get the sense that Selby is trying to portray himself as almost kind of a, a puppet to substance use that made him not really aware of what was going on Things were impulsive DALE PIERRE SELBY In some of the old comedies, you know, the like Charlie Chaplin, you know, type of stuff, it seemed to have that sort of effect You can watch somebody being beaten or assaulted and it�d be the funniest thing you ever seen The actions seem to be, you know, overstated, larger than life Like, almost like, gags As a matter of fact, if you�d be assaulted, it�d be the funniest thing You just sit there laughing You know, you just laugh, laugh, laugh Everything is, everything is funny But then your brain is not even functioning, because a lot of times you�re not thinking You�re just off somewhere For me, I was, anyway DR CARLISLE So your mind isn't even working? DALE PIERRE SELBY No DR CARLISLE You know, with certain types of drugs, there's a feeling that you just don't care It doesn't matter anymore The Hi-Fi killers talk about taking certain combination of drugs and they say, �Hey, when you do this, it just doesn't matter It doesn't matter if someone hurts you or if you hurt them You just don't care You don't feel pain that much, whether it's your pain or someone else's pain� DR GARY BRUCATO The memory of the event, when he feels like it, giving accurate information, is extremely detailed with almost an awareness of himself and everything that was going on And yet, he's trying to tell us that the whole thing occurred in a state of trance or something, but in reality, we know from studying the evidence and from the Andrews� tapes, the Hi-Fi murders were plotted for some time NICKY JACKSON No question in my mind it�s premeditated because they took that Drano with them They also brought the handguns with them They knew exactly what they were doing JESSICA FOWLER Dissociation is often referred to as an altered state of awareness or altered state of consciousness Two studies were conducted to assess the dissociative experience in a criminal act� DR CARLISLE � Dissociative experience in a criminal act Two of the samples were experiencing drug toxicity while committing the crime One person brutally killed several people in a mass murder spree at a music store He was using a combination of Valium, alcohol, and marijuana at the time He reported there was a loss of a sense of humanity and empathy, they ceased being people There was no empathy for them and no sense of self for them KEVIN YOUNGBERG The building would have been just down here and on the left When we arrived on the scene, the most lucid person there was Orren Walker I thought he had a pen on top of his ear You know how people park a pen up there And then he swallowed, and I saw it come out of his ear a little bit So when the ambulance arrived, I put him in first DR CARLISLE In the incident, the ballpoint pen, how�d that come about? DALE PIERRE SELBY I was using that, that Air Force boots with the steel toes I remember putting it right in the tip DON MOORE Pierre found a ballpoint pen and put it in Orren Walker's ear and then stomped on that pen, driving it into his skull, driving the pen clear into his esophagus Again, it did not kill Orren Walker He found that when he swallowed, he could actually force the pen back out about an inch, to where he could still breathe DALE PIERRE SELBY We couldn't turn the lights on in the place If you're robbing it, you don't want to turn the lights on It took all my efforts to focus and have to use a flashlight And I pulled the trigger I had problems holding onto the gun I had to keep knocking and pulling, and keep pulling on the, the slide to get the, the shots to come out By that time, you know, there was only two shots left in it, because I think three of them went wasted I can't remember who was the first one I shot I was shooting in the dark I think it took about nine shots DON MOORE I�d have given anything to be sitting in on that conversation, face-to-face with him, and look at his expressions and his demeanor DALE PIERRE SELBY Ah, people have to, to work themselves into a state like that You have to become desensitized to a certain degree, to accept what you're doing like that Once in a while, I think, you know, about, what if I hadn�t been involved? What would I have been doing now? Where would I have been, you know? What would the people had been doing? What would they have been like, you know? How many lives would they have influenced? That type of stuff But like I said, you know, the first time I was sitting, I was thinking about it, I always could say, well, you know, the drugs made me do it But, ah, like I said, I don�t believe things come that easy and, ah, maybe I might have had these tendencies long before DR CARLISLE Yeah, I see, okay This might be a good time to stop DON MOORE Is it, he�s talking about it so casual But from what I�ve heard, from what I�ve seen, there�s more in this confession than anyone has heard before CARRIE ANNE KELLER These interviews with the Hi-Fi killers were very early on in Doc�s quest to form his theories on the development of the violent mind, but he still knew that these brief sessions just weren�t enough Dr Al Carlisle got Dale Pierre to fess up However, he was frustrated and, frankly, left with many unanswered questions DR CARLISLE What happens in the brain is a person starts building up a dark side, which is very private and takes in a lot of fantasy So, when they get depressed, when they get angry, they can shift into it And once that's triggered, it doesn't just go away So this dark side gets stronger and stronger They start having homicidal fantasies, and then they go on and kill, and then they become a serial killer CARRIE ANNE KELLER With the Hi-Fi killers, were we looking at another serial killer in the making? If Dale Pierre wasn't stopped when he was, would he have became another Bundy? DON MOORE Six months before the homicides at the Hi-fi Shop occurred, I had investigated a homicide with a prior suspect that lived in Barracks 351 The suspect in that was an airman I knew him as Dale Pierre DON MOORE I had investigated a prior case, a homicide The suspect in that was an airman I knew him as Dale Pierre DON MOORE In October of 1973, Edward Jefferson worked with Pierre on the base And he had an apartment in downtown Ogden He had invited Pierre and other airmen to his apartment on several occasions where they partied and drank beer and listened to stereo equipment that Edward Jefferson had purchased from the Hi-fi Shop Jefferson had learned that Pierre was involved in a car-theft ring Pierre's MO was to go to a used car lot and try out a car, take him on a test drive While he had the car out by himself, he would go have a duplicate set of keys made up Later that night, Pierre would go back to the car lot with the extra keys that he had made up and steal the car And one night, Jefferson realized he couldn't find his car keys or the key to his apartment, and he became suspicious Edwards was smart enough to realize that Pierre had probably taken his keys and had duplicates made out on it So, he confronted Pierre and he said, �I'm gonna expose you if you so much as touched my car or any of my property, I'm gonna turn you into the authorities� Later that night, after the argument was over, Jefferson slept on the couch Somebody had let himself into the apartment by using those keys, walked to the head of the couch, put a pillow over the face of Sergeant Andrews and stabbed him in the face seven times with a military bayonet, with enough force that the hilt of the bayonet fractured his skull in the front Putting all the evidence together, interviewing friends and suspects, that's when I came up with the name of Dale Pierre I talked to him multiple times and he would never ever confess to it I just could not get enough positive information to get an indictment against him I was working on it to the best of my ability when the Hi-Fi murders occurred six months later DR GARY BRUCATO When Detective Moore discusses the Jefferson case, he is describing a case that went cold, but the signs pointed to Selby, and certainly for him, and his gut, had a strong inclination to believe that Selby was responsible REPORTER It's the kind of news Ogden has been waiting to hear for 13 years Dale Selby's execution means this community's worst nightmare is half over People have reacted to the execution in different ways Some of those who sought justice through death celebrated Dale Selby�s last night alive DON MOORE The day before he was sentenced to die, I took it upon myself to go up and talk to him in the jail I remember it was a very stormy night Pierre was inside, seated on his bunk I stood right before Pierre, and I looked at him right in the eye and he looked at me right in the eye And I told him, I says, Dale, you�ve been sentenced to die and I wanna ask you about Edward Jefferson I�m not gonna charge you, I�m not gonna bring that case back to light again, I know you did it, you know you did it, so tell me about it He�s seated on the bunk, I�m standing right in front of him, staring at me in the face The lights in the entire cell block went out There was an electrical power failure because of the storm Pitch black I�m ashamed to admit but the thought went through my mind, if Dale Pierre touches me and tries to make any kind of a movement on me, I�ll kill him right here in this cell block The lights were out for maybe ten seconds before the lights came back on Pierre was still seated in the same exact place He had not moved He never said a word to me I requested the jailor open the door and I left the cell and that�s the last time I saw Dale Pierre DR GARY BRUCATO Dr Brucato DON MOORE Hey, this is Detective Don Moore DR GARY BRUCATO Ah, pleasure to meet you There may be some information for creating a potential link between these two cases DR GARY BRUCATO Selby was a mass murderer because he killed three people in the Hi-Fi murders He wouldn't be considered a serial killer unless we were to discover that there had been a previous murder, separated in time by a cooling-off period DR GARY BRUCATO What I would recommend, there is a group called Cold Case Foundation, I happen to be on the expert panel What they do is they provide resources to help law enforcement or family members to find closure on cold cases like this DON MOORE The Jefferson case has never been fully closed I hope that we get some type of a closure, perhaps for the Jefferson family And also, I want to see some closure for me, too DR GARY BRUCATO What we've got now is a group of experts representing forensic science, psychological science as well DEAN JACKSON Here in the room with us, we've got, Karen Elliot, who's our blood spatter expert Chris McDonough, who's here with us, homicide investigator And, uh, then we're excited today to have Detective Moore, who's going to be presenting our case for us today DON MOORE It was my feeling, just from looking at the crime scene, that he was totally unaware that the suspect was in the room with him Probably never even knew what hit him A bayonet, to me, kind of stood out as a, a very good possibility as a murder weapon KAREN ELLIOT And Jefferson had threatened to take him to the police CHRIS MCDONOUGH So he, he�s got the motivation He went to take him out DALE PIERRE SELBY I remember I was in such a rage I hit him with a stone and he was bleeding Had a complication in church You know what a cricket bat is? Came up behind him and took a swing, almost brained him Then I just remember saying well we�d better kill them, and I pulled the trigger I can't remember who was the first one I shot I remember stealing cars to get the engines for racing You know, we used to drag race on the weekends CHRIS MCDONOUGH We know he�s a serial car thief FRANCINE BARDOLE This kind of stuff that happens, isn't his first rodeo It just isn't CHRIS MCDONOUGH He's a serial criminal The guy is a career criminal And anything goes DR BRUCATO It was very clear after Hi-Fi that he was a, a psychopath with sadistic tendencies CHRIS MCDONOUGH So this is out of the appeals Certain women, civilian employees at the library technical branch of maintenance at Hill Air Force Base were advised Pierre was considered to have a mean streak, to be a, quote, psycho and capable of cutting their throats if he felt like it DR BRUCATO And that's the thing We're trying to make a potential linkage between these offenses There are personality traits that would've been similar between the type of person who killed Jefferson and Selby, as we understand him, in the Hi-Fi murders CHRIS MCDONOUGH So, that level of brutality, it does constitute a signature DR GARY BRUCATO So having listened to all of this, do we think he was capable of killing Jefferson and, and had motive to do so? EVERYONE Absolutely Absolutely Absolutely CHRIS MCDONOUGH The common denominator is Dale Selby He certainly has the behavioral characteristics between the two crimes Circumstantially, he's linked to it and, and I believe that he's responsible for it DR GARY BRUCATO Imagine what it means to the families, that almost 50 years later, their, their family members' names are still on the lips of law enforcement, like they mattered that much DON MOORE Thank you all UNIDENTIFIED MALE All right, guys UNIDENTIFIED MALE Pleasure meeting you DR GARY BRUCATO Sometimes people ask the question what is the practical use of solving a case when the offender�as in the case of Selby�has already been executed? There wouldn't be any punishment I think it's because that closure is really more forthe families DR GARY BRUCATO But in addition it helps people like me who, who study these crimes to think a little bit more about this case as possibly a serial killer case as opposed to a mass murder case, to reclassify it, understand the personality of somebody like Selby DR CARLISLE Can you see the possibility that those violent tendencies were latent in you? What changed? What went wrong? DALE PIERRE SELBY I guess I�m some sort of crazy I don�t know I don�t know CARRIE ANNE KELLER While Doc was not able to add much to his theory on the violent mind after having these conversations, it�s amazing that, 35 years later, it�s having such a ripple effect I just wish that Doc was still alive so that he could see how his work matters and that is why we were going to continue to keep digging into these tapes DR CARLISLE Just relax Let yourself go into a deep, deep sleep DR PAUL PURI It�s quite possible that someone with a multiple personality disorder could commit a crime that they don�t remember DR CARLISLE What happened to the girl? REGGIE DINSMORE I killed her DR CARLISLE With multiple personality, when B comes up, A goes down B commits a crime, A doesn�t know anything about it DR CARLISLE Did you kill her?