ARTHUR_GARY_BISHOP CARRIE_ANNE_KELLER CHARLENE_HARMON DAVID_YOCOM DR_ALLAN_ROE DR_CARLISLE DR_KATHERINE_RAMSLAND FEMALE JESSICA_FOWLER LARRY_VOSCHALL LIZ_KLOEPFER LOUISE_BUNDY MANNY_CORTEZ MARJORIE MARYLYNNE_CHINO OPERATOR REPORTER SANDY SGT_SHANE_ALEXANDER SYBIL_FERRIS TED_BUNDY DR CARLISLE Okay, this is a check to see if the mic works Looks like it does DR CARLISLE The issue is, how do you have a basically normal person, who�s not insane, how does this compelling urge build up? CHARLENE HARMON My dad was always fascinated with why people behave the way they did DR CARLISLE So, what happened? TED BUNDY I�ve been doing my lurking, night stalking thing, and then things went wrong JESSICA FOWLER My grandpa was, he was a trailblazer CARRIE ANNE KELLER This was before the FBI developed their Mindhunter program This was before even the word �serial killer� was termed JESSICA FOWLER I think the criminal- science community is gonna be amazed at some of the stuff that we�ve been finding CARRIE ANNE KELLER He wanted to understand the development of a violent mind FEMALE By understanding as much as you can about the criminal mind, the whole criminal justice system will be better off ARTHUR GARY BISHOP One reason Ikilled was because at one point it became enjoyable for me TED BUNDY Well I would think about my darker side, if you will It would talk to me It was saying, �Okay, now listen We�re gonna do it, and I�m tired of you fucking around� DR, KATHRINE RAMSLAND Al Carlisle developed a theory about how serial killers can pass as normal, but at the same time, have this very dark addiction to killing MANNY CORTEZ I was enraged that the person died Because that person was no longer there to fulfill my fantasy DR CARLISLE We�re talking about psychological factors regarding the development of the hostile and violent mind JESSICA FOWLER These tapes are going to help us understand how a person goes from zero to forty murders TED BUNDY The only thing you could do to change the outcome would be to scream and fight like hell and hope that you could get away DR CARLISLE This is a story about how we need to understand how normal- seeming people can become absolute monsters CARRIE ANNE KELLER Oh my JESSICA FOWLER There�s so much CARRIE ANNE KELLER This is your dad�s writing CARRIE ANNE KELLER When I met Dr Al Carlisle, I was 24 years old, and I helped him compile documentation, research, tapes, films When Doc died, we found out he had items and documents scattered everywhere � his home, his offices, storage units JESSICA FOWLER My grandpa thought this stuff was all lost Like, he actually went to try and get copies of some of this from the prison system and they had already destroyed all of theirs because they only keep it for so long CHARLENE HARMON Let's hear what dad has to say DR CARLISLE There are various characteristics of serial murders One is that many of them are intelligent or, at least, streetwise JESSICA FOWLER I recognize that mustache That's my grandpa! DR CARLISLE I was born in Utah I went to Utah State University CARRIE ANNE KELLER While he was in college, he got fascinated by Charles Manson So he decided to study psychology, especially people who perpetrated crimes that weren't normal crimes CHARLENE HARMON When my dad was going to school, they weren't studying serial killers, they weren't studying violent sex offenders He was just a clinical psychologist, and he just happened to get a job at the prison DR CARLISLE So after graduation, I was a psychologist at Utah State Prison, and myself and Dr Allen Roe were the two consistent psychologists DR ALLAN ROE We just hit it off, right off, he was very helpful, very kind Mostly we would interview inmates, or �therapize� them as we called it Both of us had to set up the psychology department there, because nobody knew what we were supposed to do, or what psychologists did DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND I'm Katherine Ramsland, a professor of forensic psychology and a researcher of extreme offenders, and I'm a colleague of Al Carlisle When I teach Introduction to Forensic Psychology, I use Al Carlisle�s book about methodology So Carlisle, for me, is a good role model JESSICA FOWLER I was a psychologist for the 90-day evaluation program It was my task to conduct psychological evaluations on inmates who were sent to the program by the court DR CARLISLE It was my task to conduct psychological evaluations on inmates who were sent to the program by the court Occasionally, when a judge was uncertain how he wanted to sentence the offender, he could place the offender in the 90-day evaluation program Our reports would be given to the judge, and he would use them in making a final determination of whether he would give the offender a prison sentence or grant probation DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND The judge is looking to the psychologist to assist them to make a good decision, because they don�t wat to turn someone out into the community who could be a danger But at the same time, they don�t want to necessarily hold somebody who might actually be a person who could make a contribution to society DR CARLISLE I checked my calendar that morning and saw that I only had one appointment scheduled with a new inmate who had just been committed to the 90-day evaluation unit DR CARLISLE I was standing outside the office, and the prisoner is walking towards me, his appearance very clean As he walked towards me, he stuck out his hand and he says, �You must be Dr Carlisle Hi, I'm Ted Bundy� DR CARLISLE In the spring of 1976, the world knew practically nothing about Ted Bundy Arrested in August of 1975 in Salt Lake City, Utah for failure to stop at the command of a police officer He was charged a few days later with possession of burglary tools Two months later, he was charged with the aggravated kidnapping of a young woman in Murray, Utah the previous November JESSICA FOWLER When my grandpa met Ted, nobody knew who he was in Utah Hewas just some student They had just picked him up for kidnapping DAVID YOCOM Carol DaRonch was an 18- year-old girl She had left work, uh, to go to the mall to look for a present for a relative DR CARLISLE Carol DaRonch drives her Camaro up in the parking lot of this mall She gets out, she walks in, and a person comes up and says, �I'm an officer and I think someone's broken into your car� DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND She was approached by a man who introduced himself as a police officer He showed her a badge, it was almost like a miniature Then he says she was gonna have to go with him to a police substation So she gets in his car, the Volkswagen Beetle which she thought was odd, but he said he was undercover, he had a story for everything DAVID YOCOM And he reached across and grabbed her left arm and slapped handcuffs on that arm She got very frightened and started fighting him and she�d scratched, fought and tried to get away from him Carol broke loose, ran into the middle of the street and there was a car coming She jumped in, said, �I'm being kidnapped, take me to the police department� They put that broadcast out, but they didn�t find anyone who matched that description or have any suspects SGT SHANE ALEXANDER On August 16th, 1975, a Utah Highway Patrol trooper notices a Volkswagen Beetle with its lights off, driving slowly through this neighborhood And that's suspicious to the trooper, so he attempts to make a traffic stop on that Beetle DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND He sees some burglary tools, a ski mask, and a crowbar DAVID YOCOM We arranged for a lineup Carol made a positive identification of Ted The judge found Ted guilty of the kidnapping charge DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND He was a well-spoken law student who was affiliated with the Mormon church, and there were a lot of accusations that they had the wrong man, there was no way Ted Bundy would be the kind of person who would be accused of the attempted abduction of a young woman Ted said, �I'm not guilty� So, the judge was uncertain what to do about sentencing So the case went to the 90-day unit CARRIE ANNE KELLER We haven�t found any tape recordings of the early conversations Doc had with Ted Bundy, but we do have his original field notes, tests, and what he wrote down about the original 90-day evaluation DR CARLISLE My purpose was to try to determine, is there a violent streak to Ted Bundy? My thing was not, did he do these things? It was just, is he violent? DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND The 90-day unit's job was to determine whether a specific prisoner, who was about to be sentenced, had the capacity to be violent in the future What they say in that report will help the judge decide whether to give prison time or let the person out on probation CARRIE ANNE KELLER Doc�s evaluation was so important that if he missed one thing, Ted Bundy would have walked DR CARLISLE Prior to my 90-day evaluation of Ted Bundy, a pre-sentence investigation report had been conducted by an investigator by the Utah Department of Corrections I skimmed the file rather than reading deeply as I did not want to bias my opinion of Ted before I had a chance to interview and test him One disturbing factor was that Ted was suspected of killing several women in the state of Washington as well as in Utah and Colorado However, my task as a psychologist on the team was to form my own opinion based on my independent findings and not be biased by what other investigations believed about him DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND When he first met Bundy, Bundy was uncharacteristically cheerful Most people who are in a unit where they know they're being tested, and the next few years of their life are on the line, are anxious, maybe depressed Bundy appeared to be completely confident he'd walk out of there And Carlisle thought, well that, that�s a very unusual stance to take DR CARLISLE Ted approached me as if he already knew the outcome of my assessment, in his favor, of course And his goal was to get to know the man who would return him to society when his 90 days had concluded JESSICA FOWLER There�s some really interesting tests Some of Ted Bundy's tests, he signed himself like a good school kid would He signed his own name on the top CARRIE ANNE KELLER Doc started by administering some tests The IQ test DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND His IQ came up in the superior range So, Carlisle knows this is gonna be difficult, because Bundy's intelligent, he understands the questioning DR CARLISLE Ted scored very low on a personality test that measures levels of anger, depression and anxiety, which would indicate no presence of an emotional problem That didn�t seem accurate, however, because a person who is, or may be, spending a lot of time in prison just doesn�t score this low in all of these areas Either Ted was telling the truth, and he was trouble-free, or he was exceptionally good at lying about it DAVID YOCOM Ted was manipulating him, as he had manipulated all the people he came in contact with It was part of his personality DR CARLISLE It made the evaluation much harder I had no choice but to conclude that something was wrong, and that Ted was working hard and well to hide something DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND I think Dr Carlisle wanted to take the questioning further because his own sense of Bundy was that something was off Carlisle would have to decide, do I want to do any other standardized assessments other than the ones that have already been done? And he did DR CARLISLE The Make-a-Picture-Story Test is a projective test because when a person tells a story to match a picture, he projects aspects of himself into the picture He is saying something about himself through the story An analysis of a set of stories reveals information about person�s motives, fears, hopes, and anticipations DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND I�ve never heard Dr Carlisle�s assessment of Ted Bundy This is pretty exciting for me DR CARLISLE The first one Any theme? TED BUNDY I guess the theme in this particular scene is how sometimes people are at the scene of a, of a, of an accident, are more concerned about the consequences of their own involvement, rather than the, the injury suffered DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND For example, you might have a little boy in a doorway You make up a story Is he glum? Is he an abuse victim and he�s depressed? What happens with the projected test is that whatever people are going through that they have not resolved, the idea is that they will say some things in the story they tell that will begin to show what they�re dealing with, that maybe they�re not telling you If those themes show up over and over and over in various different assessments, you can begin to see that this person has this issue DR CARLISLE Look at the pictures, what do you think about that? TED BUNDY This is right out of the daily episode of Superman If you recall, Superman had this sidekick Jimmy, I think his name was Jimmy And then there�s this woman who worked in the office, Jane? And we have a heavy in the picture who�s just robbed a jewelry store, several million dollars in diamonds And in the process, has lured Jimmy and Jane out to the bridge for an opportunity to talk to Superman And it seems, instead of actually dropping the diamonds over, he has dropped a bag full of kryptonite over the side, and he hopes that Superman will go over and pick up the bag And of course we all know that kryptonite makes Superman weak DR CARLISLE How does it end up? TED BUNDY Um, Superman isn't gonna fall for it, because with his X-ray vision, he has seen that the bag actually contains something else He knows what the guy is up to DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND That�s an interesting twist on this That would be the kind of thing that Carlisle would be looking for When Superman looks at a bag with his X-ray vision and it has something else in it Now a bag is about something hidden And you don�t know what�s in it, but Superman can see it, and it turns out to be an unexpected thing Who would say that, except somebody whose bag has something else in it than, than what you expect? DR CARLISLE Okay, is there an ending to it? TED BUNDY Jimmy runs and calls the police, who come and pick up the man, and Superman flies off to become Clark Kent again I can never figure out how they never identify him DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND Bundy came up with that, and he came up with it quickly, which suggests he has secrets, and they�re the things that nobody would expect DR CARLISLE Ted is not revealing himself He is not admitting to the crime I couldn't just use the same old psychological assessments, because he had the capability of faking it So, what I decided I had to do, I wanted to talk to people who knew him and see what they said about these different periods of his life, to see if I could see some kind of a development of a violent personality LOUISE BUNDY Hello? DR CARLISLE Hello, Mrs Bundy? CARRIE ANNE KELLER Doc was considered unconventional at the time He interviewed landladies He interviewed old girlfriends He interviewed other people around him So the scope was a little bit bigger than most people would encompass DR CARLISLE I'm Dr Carlisle I work at the Utah State Prison, and I've been asked by the court to do a psychological on Ted Would you mind talking about him a little bit? LOUISE BUNDY Not, not a bit DR CARLISLE Okay Um, did you see any change at all in his personality over the years? Or has he been pretty much the same person as you�ve always known him to be? LOUISE BUNDY I�d say he's been pretty much the same He's just always been mature, and we've always been extremely, uh, proud of him, and he's always been a wonderful son We've never had any indication of any, in any other way DR CARLISLE Yeah, uh, huh, okay Well, that helps Well, thank you very much LOUISE BUNDY Alright, same here DR CARLISLE Bye DR CARLISLE I spoke to Ted�s mother and others who knew him and there were no indications of an open psychopathic process that was seen during his childhood He wasn�t cruel to animals, he didn�t set fires, he didn�t shoplift, and he was not rebellious He was a nice boy, a quiet boy And, seemingly, a very normal boy I had not yet found the smoking gun DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND Dr Carlisle is pioneering a method of case analysis by spending a lot of time getting fine details from one person to another in a variety of domains, so that he can make an accurate presentation to the court about Bundy's potential to be violent DR CARLISLE The next person I talked to was the first girlfriend he was really in love with, Marjorie DR CARLISLE Do you know if he was ever hurt by a girl? MARJORIE Not that I knew of I sort of felt that he hadn't had much contact with women until he got involved with me DR CARLISLE When he found Marjorie, and he�s very much in love with her, and she is beautiful, she's intelligent She's a year ahead of him in school, in college DR CARLISLE He said at times that you and he would have some arguments and quarrels MARJORIE Primarily things like he lied He was saying something that he knew would sound good to me DR CARLISLE Did you see any other times or any other occasions where his behavior seemed weird or odd? MARJORIE Well, he was odd to begin with, you know He popped up all the time in weird places DR CARLISLE How do you mean? MARJORIE He would just show up on the streets And somebody said, turn around, there he is It was just a weird feeling, you know? Sometimes I felt like he was watching me I, I just wasn't comfortable with the things he did He could have been living three lives and I wouldn't know it DR CARLISLE So she began sending letters saying, no, I don't think this is gonna work out and such And then, during the summer she uh, calls it off MARJORIE He cried, you know? He really cried I mean, he was really falling apart over me DR CARLISLE Over a period of about three weeks, that I�d talked to his mother, I talked to Marjorie, but nobody seems to see very much anger in him Even Marjorie, Marjorie said that he didn�t seem to have a lot of anger MARYLYNNE CHINO In 1969, I met Ted Bundy in a tavern in Seattle, Washington My friend, she went up and asked him to dance We danced and had a good time He was interesting to talk to and um, he stayed in my friend's, uh, apartment with her that night And that's when I think they started their relationship at that point He was just kind of a normal person They were a couple for many, many years DR CARLISLE I'm Dr Carlisle I�ve been given the task by the court to write a psychological on Ted and I�ve spent, oh, about ten hours talking with him So, and not to try to prove any guilt or innocence or any of that type of thing LIZ KLOEPFER But it is up to you to make a recommendation, isn�t it? DR CARLISLE Uh-huh What, what did his personality seem to be like? LIZ KLOEPFER Witty We�re just so compatible, and he was good with my child, Molly DR CARLISLE Yeah Was there ever anything different or unusual about him at all? LIZ KLOEPFER In what way? DR CARLISLE Oh, any way It's kind of an open question LIZ KLOEPFER Well, I think he's unique I don�t know that he�s unusual DR CARLISLE How do you mean unique? LIZ KLOEPFER In a good way Uh, I never met anybody like him DR CARLISLE At this point in the evaluation, it appeared Ted was a private person Marjorie felt Ted hid himself from her and even after a couple of years of their relationship, felt she still didn�t know him And Liz, who loved Ted, didn�t see a dark side of him And there were a number of people coming in and out of his life, most relationships were brief suggesting instability DR CARLISLE I talked to some others who knew him, and I learned that Ted went out on a raft trip and took another girl with a couple other people, one who was sort of a friend, knew Ted, been to parties with him LARRY VOSCHALL I had always had Ted pegged as a gentleman�s gentleman DR CARLISLE Uh-huh LARRY VOSCHALL But, uh, as the raft trip progressed, he got us into a couple of really tight situations Kinda like a Deliverance kind of river trip He put us in under a waterfall one time and almost overturned the raft Becky almost went under DR CARLISLE She was in an inner tube in the back, and he cut the rope and let it go over to this area where it was a dangerous part of the river, and she couldn't swim At that point, he didn�t kill anyone, but it was just out of control and they could see it LARRY VOSCHALL He just seemed to enjoy seeing people frightened, I guess DR CARLISLE Ted Bundy asked me one time, he said, uh, are you talking to some people I knew? And I says, yeah, I'm talking to girlfriends and some parents and people who liked you And he says, well, what are they saying? And I said, well, some of them are saying some real good things And others, uh, are not Oh, he got mad at that He just And he was like, �How dare you?� DR CARLISLE A case for the development of a violent personality was beginning to show itself But in fairness to Ted, I had not yet found the smoking gun DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND Carlisle didn't wanna be fooled by Bundy's genial, charming presentation He wanted to do his homework, so he went over and above what would ordinarily be expected during the assessment time to learn more And each time he did, he found that he needed to talk to yet more people So this is unusual, it was unique Not many people would've done this, but he did SANDY Hello? DR CARLISLE Hello, Sandy? Hi, this is Dr Carlisle again SANDY I recognized your voice DR CARLISLE You did, huh? Well good Hey, I'm sorry to bother you again SANDY No problem DR CARLISLE The relationship between the two of you then was, uh, pardon? SANDY It was strained DR CARLISLE Yeah, it was strained Kind of a power struggle SANDY Yes DR CARLISLE It seems Ted wants relationships with people on his terms and he wants to be in control of the relationship at all times He is egocentric DR CARLISLE Can you tie that power struggle in again with the sex? SANDY The day that we went to the river, we had lunch and laid in the sun And then we went swimming, and that's when he came up with the idea that I would climb up a tree and jump in the river And that was sort of where the antagonism began It grew during the day, because that was a stupid thing to do, and then to, to press for it It didn�t seem at all necessary DR CARLISLE She finally jumps in from the shore, because she doesn't wanna have to get up in the tree, and the water's cold, and it's a little fast SANDY And that�s when he was, um, dunking me in the water DR CARLISLE In the dunking in the river, did he hold you under? About how long? SANDY Half a minute, or a minute, I don�t know It�s playful up to a point that someone is trying to get away to get air DR CARLISLE Did you get a feeling any time in there that he was actually trying to drown you? SANDY I asked, I said, �What are you trying to do, drown me?� And he just laughed I thought, he doesn�t realize what he�s doing DR CARLISLE He shoves her head underwater, you know, we're getting aggression now SANDY We were out of the water for a while, and I think we were drinking some more wine And that�s when the intercourse happened DR CARLISLE Yeah, did he ever seem angry in any way while having sex? SANDY It was slam-bam, thank you, ma�am Nothing loving or caring or gentle about it It was as if I didn�t even exist as a person DR CARLISLE Has there been any time during sex that he seemed like he didn't know what he was doing? He was just kind of out of it? SANDY Yeah, I would say, definitely When he started coming down on me, his, his arm was over my throat DR CARLISLE This is one of my first indications that Ted is getting violent He can't control himself, when he�s having sex, he's choking And so, yeah, I�m seeing violence is developing SANDY I was in sheer terror I, I was really frightened at that point DR CARLISLE It was clear Ted was not the normal college student he wanted others to see him as He had been aggressive And putting his arm over his sexual partner�s throat and choking her during sex bordered on homicide DR CARLISLE When I had done the evaluation on Ted, talked to everybody, got this one lady, a 70-year-old nurse She knew him when he was still in college in Washington, back in the sixties And she was really, really concerned DR CARLISLE Ted Bundy, I understand that you knew him at one time SYBIL FERRIS I worked with him at the Seattle Yacht Club Got him a job at the Olympic Hotel and he went through the men�s lockers and found some old tuxedoes that he used to dress himself up like he was a head waiter in some restaurant and, oh, just perfectly ridiculous things He's a very, very peculiar boy Something was up He still owes me money DR CARLISLE Oh, does he? Can you give me some � SYBIL FERRIS He�s a boy I tried to help, but it�s useless DR CARLISLE Uh-huh What sort of things would he do that was kind of out of the ordinary? SYBIL FERRIS He borrowed my car several times Went out on night trips, and I was scared to death when he was gone Something was up because he just wasn�t running true to form of where he was going or what he was doing He was always kind of sneaking around DR CARLISLE Her use of the word �sneaky� and the phrase �he was sure a peculiar person,� suggests that Ted had some sort of a secret life that he kept hidden from her DR CARLISLE Did he ever use any kind of an accent? SYBIL FERRIS Oh, well, he was putting on an accent every time that you could imagine, all the time Something different every time you saw him I�ve been kind of afraid of him when he was here in Green Lake DR CARLISLE A very important point in what she was saying was that she was afraid of him A person with psychopathic traits who incites fear often has violent traits SYBIL FERRIS I was almost sure that I saw him down in the Albertson�s grocery store here at Green Lake the very day those two girls were killed out there on Lake Sammamish REPORTER Police began their investigation after Denise Naslund and Janice Ott vanished from Lake Sammamish State Park At least seven people at the crowded beach saw and heard a man who called himself Ted DR CARLISLE When the news came out that Ted was suspected of homicides up in the northwest, I was aware of the allegations against him But I couldn't use any of that, because that was not proof At one point during the evaluation, we were standing out in the hall He looked at me and he says, �Al,� he never wanted to call me Dr Carlisle It was always Al �Do you think I killed those girls?� And I thought, well, I think so, but I can't say yes, because you'll go to court and tell them that I had prejudged you DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND I think Bundy was trying to feel out Carlisle for how the reports that he was a suspect in a number of murders was influencing what he might say in his report about whether Bundy's violent It kind of took Carlisle by surprise DR CARLISLE And so what I said was, �Well, I don't know for sure, but I think if you did, you'll do it again� He just looked at me for a minute and turned around and walked back to his cell DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND At this point, law enforcement had no proof of anything but the attempted kidnapping That's it DR CARLISLE But I took about 20 hours in the interview with Ted Bundy I spent a lot of time with him, and I got into a lot of detail, and asked him about virtually every aspect of his life TED BUNDY It's hard I think of Liz and, and Molly About Liz and all the, the sad, lonely times she�s having now I think about how she's changed, Molly, now that she's turned 10, how she's changed, and how she's matured I think about them The things we have done and how they, and how they're doing now It just hurts me to think about we might not see each other for a long time DR CARLISLE Ted is trying to tell me how much he loves Liz It's contrived, but I think not totally so Ted had tears in his eyes when he told me this story I felt his tears were genuine, and not a manipulation to make me feel sorry for him DR CARLISLE We finished the evaluation on Ted, and I've come to really be impressed by this guy I like him, like to talk to him When he talks to me, it's like a kid talking to his father, or his friend, about the home run that he almost hit He talks in a very friendly way I talked to Ted's mom, talked to, uh, Elizabeth, his girlfriend So I talked to eight or ten different people There are a lot of people who are saying that Ted Bundy could not have done these things They swore in his behalf On the other side, this nurse said there's just something definitely wrong with that guy He would borrow her car and be out until late in the morning, and she thought maybe he was running drugs He has this one girl, takes her out to the river for a picnic He shoves her head underwater We're getting aggression now There were several things, I concluded, some of them from the testimony, some from the testing and such DAVID YOCOM The prosecution doesn�t have any input regarding the evaluation The evaluation is done exclusively by the, the experts So the pressure was on Dr Carlisle DR CARLISLE I submitted my report to the court and all hell broke loose DAVID YOCOM All eyes of law enforcement and the press were watching the Carol DaRonch sentencing of Ted Bundy After the 90-day evaluation is prepared and submitted in a report form to the judge �The assessment done by Dr Al Carlisle, PhD The above personality profile is consistent with possibility of violence� DR CARLISLE I concluded he is violent enough to have done that type of a crime DAVID YOCOM �Therefore, I cannot comfortably say he would be a good risk if probation is granted� DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND And that was the report that he turned in to the court Bundy was very unhappy, very angry With tears in his eyes, he held the report in his hands DR CARLISLE And he said, �This was written to fit the crime This is not me� DAVID YOCOM He called them quacks, had him all wrong, basically DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND He thought that he had Al Carlisle under his control, and it turned out he did not DR CARLISLE And I thought, boy, this guy hates me DAVID YOCOM Because of Dr Carlisle's assessment, the judge had sentenced him to 15 years in prison It was 15 years that he wouldn't do any harm to any other person JESSICA FOWLER My grandpa definitely saw something about Ted Bundy before the rest of the world did, because my grandpa was one of the first people to see that Ted Bundy was truly capable of violence TED BUNDY I have got to keep myself together and I have got to stay calm I've got to keep my presence of mind Because as long as I do that, I'm gonna beat these people And one day I'll have a new trial DAVID YOCOM When Ted was arrested for the kidnapping of Carol DaRonch, we vacuumed out the VW that, here in Salt Lake After Ted had begun his sentence for the DaRonch kidnapping, the authorities in Colorado continued their investigation and developed new evidence that allowed them to charge Ted Bundy with murder of Caryn Campbell in Aspen, Colorado REPORTER Bundy, who had earlier been convicted of kidnapping in Utah, is facing a first-degree murder in the 1975 beating death of Michigan nurse, Caryn Campbell DR KATHERINE RAMSLAND At the trial, he wanted to represent himself, which gave him access to the law library of this particular courthouse When he was in the library, he noticed that there was an open window It was a second-floor library, and he watched the guard REPORTER Bundy escaped from the Pitkin County courthouse yesterday during a recess in a hearing related to his murder trial He had gone to a small law library then, when out of sight of his guard, he jumped about 30 feet to the ground, and he hasn�t been seen since CHARLENE HARMON I was worried about my father You're a psychologist who did this assessment, Ted Bundy's gonna come after you Why wouldn't he want to come seek revenge? You were the first person who told people that he was violent You would be a target CARRIE ANNE KELLER At this point, Doc�s assessment was over Doc�s work with Bundy was finished, and basically Doc thought he was done with Ted Bundy OPERATOR This is Salt Lake operator, and we're ready on Ted Bundy's call to Al Carlisle CARRIE ANNE KELLER He was never gonna be done with Ted Bundy TED BUNDY Ted Bundy here